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Michael Buerk

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

that's all well and good

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

we surely have a responsibility to the generations that come after Maddie Groeger-Wilson

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

we have a responsibility to preserve nature for them

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

Shiv Malik

letting loose on the greenfield cites

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

possibly leaving my children, my grandchildren with a world of concrete

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

as human beings we have wonderful sets of systematic biases in how we see the world.

Shiv Malik

most of us travel from one built-up area to another.

Shiv Malik

And so we think, in England, that most of it's built up.

Shiv Malik

Now if I asked most people what percentage of England

Shiv Malik

just England, not Scotland or Wales - just England

Shiv Malik

that tends to be the place that people focus on as most built-up.

Shiv Malik

What percentage is actually built-up?

Shiv Malik

The answer might be 20% or 50%

Shiv Malik

it actually turns out to be 11%

Shiv Malik

it's actually less than that

Shiv Malik

that includes all the parks, and all the gardens, and all the rivers and canals, and it turns out that actually three percent is concreted over.

Shiv Malik

can we extend that by a percent?

Shiv Malik

can we extend that by a percent?

Shiv Malik

What are we giving up for that?

Shiv Malik

we have to ask ourselves that question

Shiv Malik

what are we doing for nature in that regard?

Shiv Malik

But if that also means that the lives of not just our generation of people under thirty-five, but every other corresponding generation after this is going to be much lower than even their parents ... then that's a terrible incitement of both us as a society,

Shiv Malik

If we're going to be a sort of declining society, we aren't going to be able to fix the sort of problems, the environmental problems that we need to do.

Shiv Malik

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

now we know more than ever about kind of the environmental situations that we ourselves are creating.

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

Surely there's an argument for saying that my generation should be the first generation to say "you know what? I'm going to settle for less. I'm going to appreciate the damage that development has done to our kind of environment"

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

Shiv : now we know more than ever about kind of the environmental situations that we ourselves are creating.

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

Surely we should be the ones to take that moral stand.

Maddie Groeger-Wilson

That argument leads you in two directions.

Shiv Malik

One is, look, we should not just settle for less, but we basically go back to being purely environmental being.

Shiv Malik

go! Great! Be a hunter-gatherer, right?

Shiv Malik

Cos that's the least environmentally-destructive position that you can take.

Shiv Malik

Shiv Malik

So we've got to find a middle ground.

Shiv Malik